TRANSCRIPTS OF GOODYEAR'S SUPERVISION TAPES
These transcripts are based on a supervision videotape series developed by Goodyear (1982). Harold (Dick) Hackney served as supervisee. Material for the supervision he received was based on counseling he provided an anonymous female client.
Ina Carlson, then a doctoral student in counseling at Purdue University, had listened to audiotapes of Hackney's first four sessions with this client. Then, in a TV studio at Purdue, Hackney counseled Carlson in the role of the client - as she imagined the client might be in the fifth session. This procedure, deemed necessary to safeguard the client's privacy, did add some artificiality to the project. But even with this apparent artificiality, meaningful material was generated.
We should note also that all this was done with the full knowledge and consent of the client. In fact, the client viewed the Hackney-Carlson studio tape and verified that it seemed to capture with some accuracy the material with which she was dealing.
The sessions with Polster, Rogers, Kagan, and Ekstein all were done in a three day period in August, 1981. The tape with Ellis was done the following April. With the exception of Kagan (whose IPR technique dictated a different procedure), all supervision was based on the supervisors having watched approximately the same brief portion of the videotape of Hackney with Carlson. The first of the following transcripts is of the segment of the therapy session that most supervisors had watched. It is followed by the supervision sessions in the following order: Polster, Rogers, Kagan, Ekstein, and Ellis. This is the order in which supervision was provided to Hackney.
All supervision sessions except Kagan's are in response to common material -- the segment of the videotape captured on the Hackney-Carlson therapy transcript. For that reason, they are especially useful in making comparisons between supervisors. For example, it is interesting to note the portion of time each supervisor spends talking (calculated by dividing the number of supervisor utterances by the total number of utterances), which is an index of supervisor activity level: Ekstein, 72.6 percent; Ellis, 82.2 percent; Polster, 46.8 percent; Rogers, 46.8 percent (this calculation has not been made for the Kagan session). Other data on the sessions are reported by Abadie (1985), Friedlander and Ward (1984), Goodyear, Abadie, and Efros (1984), Harris and Goodyear (1990), and Holloway et al. (1989).
Notice that these transcripts originally were developed by Abadie (1985) and then refined by Holloway, Freund, Gardner, Nelson, and Walker (1989). Speech dysfluencies and interruptions have been retained in the transcripts for researchers who might wish to use them for supervision research.
*Note that the transcript of the Rogers-Hackney session originally was published in "Carl Rogers' client-centered approach to supervision," by H. Hackney and R. K. Goodyear, in Client centered therapy and the person centered approach, R. F. Levant and J. M. Shlien (Eds.). New York: Praeger Publishers. Reprinted with permission.
THERAPY SESSION: DICK HACKNEY AS COUNSELOR
CO = Hackney CL = Client
[This segment begins midway through the 50 minute session]
CL: Mmm. Yeah. I feel stuck, and if I’m going to be stuck here I want to at least like where I am.
CO: Yeah, yeah. So I guess what you’re saying is that what you would like is to really enjoy feeling stuck.
CL: Well, I think if I enjoyed it I wouldn’t feel stuck.
CO: OK.
CL: I mean, if I’m going to stay married to John, I’d really like to feel good about it. I’d like to feel good about not going out with other guys. Or, I don’t mean going out with other guys. Or, if I want to talk to another guy, you know, I want to know that it’s just because that person’s a friend and not someone I have this big dream about.
CO: Mm hmm.
CL: Do you know what I mean?
CO: Yeah, I think what you’d like is to feel free in this relationship, and feel that you’re in this relationship because it’s the right place for you to be.
CL: Mmm. I’ve never felt free. I mean, maybe when I was four, but never, you know...I wouldn’t know what that was like. I wouldn’t know what that was-like.
CO: But you’re trapped right now and you don’t like that, too.
CL: No.
CO: You know, we’ve been talking the last few minutes, mostly about John and your relationship with him, and I’m wondering if you’re saying this is the relationship you’d most like to work on. Yes, there’s always your mother in the background, and-uh Don, of course, is coming and going but not the dominant character so much. But John is very central. Is that where you think you’d like to put your energies?
CL: Mmm hmm. Yeah.
CO: What would you like to have happen this week between you and John? Do you have any dream of how it might all get started?
CL: I’d like him to talk to me. Not just like who’s going to cut the grass, but I’d like him to talk to me.
CO: OK. Say some more.
CL: I’d like him to listen to me. I mean
it’s really weird. . . I was thinking about this this week . . . I feel a little embarrassed to tell you, but the only place anybody listens to me is here. And I just don’t want to have this be the only place.
CO: Mmm hmm.
CL: Because I can’t come here forever.
CO: Mm hmm. I hope not.
CL: But I really wanted to come today ... cause I wanted someone to listen to me. And it felt . . . well, I’d sure like somebody else in my life to listen to me. And to talk to me like I was a really . . . person . . . I mean, I understand why he doesn’t do this. I mean I really know this. You know, he’s ... well, I’ve told you how things were for him when he was growing up. So I understand and so maybe I’m asking too much. But, I’d listen to him. If he’d ever talk to me, I’d listen to him. It’s not that I just want something for me that I wouldn’t give back. Maybe he doesn’t mean that.
CO: OK, let’s… ummm .. . just play a game for a moment. If you were to be fortunate enough to have a meaningful conversation with John this week, can you fantasize where it might take place? Would it be at home? Would it be in the truck going from work to home? Or, would it be down in the tavern?
CL: No, no, not there. Gosh, no. Probably out on the back porch.
CO: Out on the back porch.
CL: Yeah, I mean, it’s got screens and sometimes I like to just go out there and listen to the crickets, and you know, if he would come and sit with me
CO: You would be out there, hoping that he would show up.
CL: Yeah, but he’s always busy. He’d probably be fixing things around the house, and painting and stuff, so he probably wouldn’t.
CO: OK, so there probably would not be any way that he would come out there on his own.
CL: Well, no…no, not this week. No, not this week.
CO: What would bring him out on the back porch?
CL: Well, I suppose I could ask him. I mean, he does about what I want.
CO: Short of asking him.
CL: The house caught fire?
CO: Well, that would probably bring him out. Smoke him out.... That’s part of the problem, isn’t it, that anytime you feel you get what you want from him, it’s because you had to smoke him out.
CL: Mmm hmm. Mmm hmm. I’m sure I could beg him and he’d sit beside me. And I’d start to talk, and then he’d pat my arm, and say, "Oh, you want a beer?"
CO: That’s the scene we want to avoid, isn’t it? You’ve tried that before and it just didn’t work.
CL: Well, I haven’t tried all that hard before. I mean, .because I haven’t even been sure,
I mean, if I’m going to do something else.
CO: What would it be like, uh, if you-uh... do you ever have lunch out on the back porch, or dinner, or...? He would come out to eat, I would think. Is that— can you imagine doing that ever?
CL: Well, you know, we have a little grill. I haven’t used it much this summer. Just because, I mean, I never get around to buying charcoal and stuff like that. I would have to, you know, maybe get some steaks and some, well, probably hamburger... I would, yeah, I suppose I could cook out there. It’s just a little job.
CO: Yeah, I was thinking of eating out there. You know, setting up a TV tray ‘or two and just eating out there.
CL: Yeah, I suppose I could do that. I don’t fuss a lot with cooking and usually, you know, we’ll just run out and get a bag of something, you know, like some chicken or something like that, you know. But, I like to do stuff like that once in a while.
CO: I don’t necessarily know that that’s the way to do it, but it seemed to me that something as natural as eating wouldn’t-uh-would be a little different than just sitting down with John and saying, "All right, John, now we’re going to have a meaningful conversation."
CL: Well, he would, I mean, he just gets real antsy, and then I’d get mad, and say something nasty.
CO: Right. Maybe you need to have something to focus your attention on, or maybe John needs to have something to focus his attention on, because you said how shy he was, and I can imagine that, just from my contact with him . . . that he would get to feeling so self-conscious that minute he thought he had to perform...
CL: Or, he’d go, "Here she goes again."
CO: Right, right.
CL: I mean, I haven’t done this, and I haven’t, you know, but I’d get, yeah, you mean like, if he had a fork to focus on on...
CO: Or a Big Mac... or whatever...
CL: Well, you know, I guess I could try it, but I might chicken out. I could certainly fix the food, but
CO: And, it wouldn’t surprise me if you chickened out. I guess I want to say that. This is a, this is not an easy thing to do.
CL: Well, it’s not. But I do things that I decide to do.
CO: Yeah. Oh, I think you are very good at doing things that you decide to do. I think that’s part of your strength.
CL: Yeah, but the things that, I mean, I’m not sure I’m very, I mean, some people think I’m ... I mean my family’s so shitty that maybe in comparison, but...
CO: Well, part of who you are, Ina, is the fact that you survived your family.
CL: Yeah, but I get scared that I’m going to blow it. I just really do. And I’ll just be down there with all the rest of them. And I’m so scared, I’m scared it’s like fate. It’s almost like I gotta keep on, like I can’t . . . like if I relax for a second, everything’s just going to go. And that’s sort of like what I felt.
CO: That must be part of what John feels too, from you. When you want to have a closer relationship with him, the intensity that you feel must be part of that.
[The session continues.]
SUPERVISION SESSION 1: ERVING POLSTER SUPERVISING DICK HACKNEY
H = Hackney P = Polster
H: It’s a pleasure to-to be here. And-uh-I’m not… I’m not sure what we’re going to be dong, I guess, in terms of-uh, the supervision session.
P: Well, that’s one of the things we’ll have to find out.
H: Right.
P: I’m not sure either; but I’d like to know something of-uh…what you’d like.
H: I think the-uh…one of the things that I experience with this client is-is that there are times when I feel some real inertia in the case. Uh-and…part of my temptation is to try to create some kind of an incident or a crisis to get the case going again. Uh-especially-uh …does she seem to be-uh-in-she’s really almost totally dependent upon a crisis happening over the week. If she comes in and has a week that hasn’t had any particular crisis, then she doesn’t do very much, that-she doesn’t have much that she wants to work on.
P: Yeah.
H: So that’s one-one of the problems I have with this case.
P: Well, it’s a little drastic to have to go from crisis to crisis in order to get anyplace.
H: Yes.
P: and-uh-what I noticed as I watch part of your tape…uh-was that-uh-there were a lot of opportunities for a heightening of experience.
H: Uh-huh
P: A heightening that would-might not have led to a crisis but would, nevertheless, have-uh-raised the tone of your engagement with her. What I experienced was that you were really-uh-marvelously-uh-uh-uh-friendly and strong and-uh…
H: Yeah.
P: understanding…
H: OK.
P: wise. Uh-I felt like you were giving her-uh-a very important experience.
H: Right. There have been times when I’ve felt like I was being too supportive. I don’t know if that hooks in to what you’re saying or not.
P: Well-uh…supportiveness has a lot of dimensions to it. I felt you were being supportive; I didn’t feel-I didn’t think you were being vapid or-uh-or-uh…or patting her on the shoulder and such.
H: Yeah.
P: I didn’t feel that kind of support. I felt the support of your…attention?
H: Uh-huh.
P: and-uh-your voice was-had authorship.
H: Yeah.
P: You cared about her, as it seemed to me.
H: Yeah.
P: And so on.
H: Yeah.
P: Uhm. So I don’t think it was a matter of reducing support, but increasing your engagement. I can’t tell you exactly what I mean by that…
H: Yeah
P: right away. I-I hope to be able to as we talk.
H: Good.
P: Like right now, as you smiled at me, I felt you increase your engagement with me.
H: Right.
P: Did you feel that?
H: I felt that, too. Yes.
P: Yes. Fantastic.
H: You really hooked me, as a matter of fact.
P: Right. Fantastic.
H: Right. Yeah.
P: Yeah.
H: Yeah. Ok.
P: Now you’re going to recede a little bit, I think.
H: (Laughs)
P: Right?
H: Right.
P: OK. Now can you say what was going on there when the …led you to recede some after?
H: Yeah. I think you’re touching on something that I do know about me-uh-and that is that I-I have a reserve that I-that-I wear and pull back into. And-uh-as soon as you first said that there was a-uh-kind of a continuous level-uh-I realized that probably in-my reserve was running that case-that session.
P: Oh, your reserve was running.
H: My reserve was running that session.
P: Say more. I’m curious about…
H: Uh…
P: what reserve you’re referring to.
H: It’s-it’s a safe kind of –uh-it’s really, I guess, it’s controlling-uh-more than anything else. But it’s-uh …there’s not a whole lot of personal contact in it…
P: Yeah.
H: to connect it to what you just said. Now I-I think I do it-I wasn’t getting very personally involved with her.
P: I see. Well, how about right now? What’s it like, your personal involvement with me, at this point?
H: Well, it went up just a few minutes ago, just two…
P: Yeah. Yeah.
H: or three minutes ago. And now I’m-I’m intellectualizing again.
P: Your-your words are interfering here.
H: Yeah. Yeah. That’s true.
P: So wouldn’t it be something if your words would-could be added on to that…
H: I’d love that.
P: aliveness?
H: Yeah.
P: Can you find some way-can you feel the aliveness now? I can feel it, not as full a full as before, but still somewhat.
H: Right.
P: How would your words sound if they fit that aliveness?
H: Well, I think I’d be a lot more excited. How would my words sound?
P: Well, try it out instead of trying to figure it out.
H: OK.
P: Just talk to me.
H: OK. Good.
P: Talk-talk to me as though you’re fascinated with me.
H: well, just a moment ago…
P: Pretend I’m fascinating.
H: Well, you are…
P: (Laughs)
H: as a matter of fact.
P: Well, let me see it.
H: OK. I felt some-some magnetism..
P: She was fascinating.
H: Yes. Yes.
P: She was really quite fascinating.
H: Yes, she was.
P: OK.
H: Uh-I’m aware how easy you are; and yet-uh-just a moment ago when you said…uh-"Where was I?"-uh…I think I got a little scared.
P: Scared?
H: Yeah.
P: Ah. Good. Well, tell me about it.
H: Well. (Laughs) How far back?
P: (Laughs) Now you’re laughing. Now you’re laughing. So where do you feel your laughter?
H: Right there. (Gestures inches in front of face)
P: Oh-uh-right there?
H: Yes.
P: Your face is rosy.
H: I think…
P: Feel the rosiness?
H: No.
P: No. OK, fine.
H: OK.
P: So the laughter’s right here?
H: Yeah. I think that was…(Pause) You’re hitting something that I …really would like to get through. And-uh…I’m-it makes me nervous because I think I’ve a very long history of it. Uh-I think it’s a real deep habit I have: so9 it might not be easy, and that worries me a little.
P: History? Long history?
H: Ok.
P: You smiled at me. Every time you get a chance to go into something like that, you smile; but then you don’t actually do it.
H: Yeah.
P: But it’s like a pleasure to be recognized, isn’t it?
H: Yes, it is.
P: Even though you’re not quite ready yet to tell me about it.
H: Yeah.
P: But just to be recognized.
H: Right. That’s true.
P: Uh-huh. Your face is a little bit softer now.
H: You’re-you’re really right about that. (Pause)
P: So what is the history you’re referring to?
H: Well, you may have said it all just now, I think-uh…being recognized, and still having some control; maybe being recognized in some of the ways I’d like to be recognized.
P: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which would be how? What kind of recognition?
H: Uhm. (Pause) I think just being let in. Uh-granted there are times when I love to be recognized for something I did-uh-but those-those are fleeting moments. And-uh—I think being let in; friendship-uh…being known, maybe.
P: Yeah.
H: (Pause) It helps when you smile. (Laughs)
P: OK, so you get some feeling about your mutual recognition …
H: Yeah.
P: Like right now, you feel some power in that. Right? I mean...
H: Yeah, but I’m not as much aware of power as that.
P: I mean-OK-what word would you prefer?
H: Uh...(pause) I think-uh-I feel safer.
P: Safer. Yeah. (Pause) All right. Now, I think you recognize your patient. I saw a lot of recognition.
H: Yeah.
P: That is, I-uh...inferred a lot of recognition.
H: Yeah.
P: Now, what would you like to say to her, if you-your heart were involved in it? What would you say to her about the session you just had, or about some part of what she wants?
H: Uh.
P: Turn. Imagine she’s over there.
H: OK.
P: and turn to her.
H: "I think, Ina, the thing I’d really like to say to you is how much I-uh-how much confidence I have in you; how much I think...how much I think you can change your world, and how much I would like that, if you did."
P: Uh-huh. and how does it feel for you to say that to her?
H: It feels good, you know, specking personally. Uh-I...
P: Yes, that’s how I’m asking you to.
H: (Laughs) When I think about saying it as a therapist-uh-I say-should I say how much I like that, you know?
P: OK. Well, for the moment, fortunately, here you don’t have to worry about that because...
H: Right.
P: You don’t have to do it with her.
H: That’s true.
P: But you can begin to get a feeling for your inner...
H: Yeah.
P: Self. OK, so you know what you said to her a moment ago and how it felt, right?
H: Yeah. And, you know, what I wonder is, should I put that on her, to let her know how much of an investment I have in her?
P: Not necessarily, you see. But you mustn’t wipe out your inner experience so as not to tell her.
H: Ok, Right. Yeah, I cheat her.
P: It would be better to have all the experience and then you make your choice...about what you say or you don’t say...
H: Yeah.
P: although I must say, in many instances, it would be...
H: Yeah.
P: salutary.
H: It sure would give me a lot wider range of things to say.
P: Yeah. It would open up your ...your face and your mind.
H: Yeah.
P: OK. Well, let’s go back a moment, all right? Now you remember what you said to her?
H: Yes.
P: All right. Now I’d like you to go over and be her responding.
H: OK. That’s the easy part. I do think I know what she’ll say.
P: Fantastic.
H: I think she’ll say-uh-"That’s exactly what I’m wanting from you, Dick."
P: Uh-huh.
H: Uhm. "I sense-uh-what you’re saying to me."
P: Did you notice how she just called you "Dick"?
H: Yeah.
P: She never did in the session-in what I observed.
H: That’s true.
P: That just came naturally…
H: Yeah.
P: didn’t it?
H: Uh-huh.
P: Uh-huh.
H: Uh-I think she would-uh-I think she senses...
P: No. Just-just be her and…
H: OK. "I sense everything you’re saying, but hearing it from you-uh...makes it real for me." And I think that’s really what she’d say. I think she’d also say, "There are times when I don’t have that trust in me. And-uh-I’m not sure I would be able to use it when I heard it from you, but,, basically, I know that is what you’re thinking, and-uh-and it will-and it gives me strength." (Pause) Uhm. I’m-I’m also aware that I’m not even speaking to the personal statement-uh-about the investment. Uhm...uh...
P: But she wasn’t all that-uh-concerned with that aspect, was she?
H: Right. Right.
P: OK, come over here now...and be Dick. What do you feel like saying to her now?
H: Uhm. "It’s really silly that I haven’t done this before. Uh-it’s a lot easier than I thought it would be. Uh-it makes sense to me. And-uh-I’m really glad I got around to saying it." (Pause) It is-uh-it’s an amazing block that I have had on that.
P: Uh-huh. Well, tell me more about what you’re saying is a block.
H: Uh-well, I guess the thing I want to say is that I’ve just never thought it through in those terms. Uh...I’ve never addressed it. I just haven’t ever addressed it; an-uh-realized what I was not saying, or what I was not doing.
P: Haven’t ever addressed-uh-what? The feelings you had inside?
H: My feelings in the relationship, yeah.
P: Yeah.
H: Right. You know, that...I haven’t owned my feelings in the relationship with her.
P: Yeah.
H: I feel them. I anticipate her coming in for a session.
P: Oh, you do?
H: Oh, yeah. I really enjoy working with her.
P: Fantastic.
H: She’s a she’s a fine person...
P: Yes.
H: fun person.
P: Yes.
H: and-uh...it is one of those-it is a case that I-uh-don’t prepare much for, I mean, mentally.
P: Yeah.
H: And I think, in a lot of ways, I’m more natural in that-in that case...(Laughs) than in a lot of the others that I do. Which is a-that’s a statement.
P: What sort of statement.
H: Well, I guess, I brought one of my best cases along. (Laughs). and-uh-I wonder what I’m like in some of my other relationships with my clients.
P: Will, I must say to you in-in…all thoroughness, that I experienced this warmth in you when you were working with her. I experienced your really liking her.
H: Uh-huh.
P: Nut you seemed like a-uh…a Dutch uncle who really wanted to take care of whatever she needed to have taken care of.
H: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that’s me.
P: Yeah. You weren’t going to be around too much; but, while you were around, you were going to really take care of her.
H: Yeah.
P: Yeah.
H: Yeah, I feel a lot of responsibility with-uh-working with her.
P: Yeah; but it felt very friendly and warm.
H: Uh-huh.
P: And what we’re dealing with how is a question of-uh…what might add to that in terms of your appreciation of your warmth and your lubrication for…
H: Yeah.
P: Your mind flow.
H: Yeah, it certainly-I know what the lubrication is. I get to feeling a lot more fluid…in just the last few minutes.
P: Uh-huh.
H: (Pause) I’d like to take this into that case. (Pause)
P: Well, you could still do it.
H: OK. Uh. (Pause) Let me ask you a question…
P: Indeed.
H: in that regard.
P: Yeah.
H: Uh…part-part of my reaction when you said that would be to-uh…to-to raise the problem with Ina, and say, "Look, here is what I’m feeling and here’s what I hope to be able to accomplish"-uh…in other words, to let her in on what I-uh-would like to accomplish in the relationship.
P: What-which is what?
H: That I would like to become more comfortable and more fluid in our case. (Pause) I'm realizing when I say that, too, that it shifts responsibility over on her, and . . .
P: Yeah.
H: I don't know that she would know what to do with that.
P: Yeah. I-I-I don't-uh-I know that there are many instances where a simple statement of the-of your truth…
H: Yeah.
P: will open up-uh-new avenues…
H: Yeah.
P: there, and . . .
H: OK. What I worry about is, once I get it started, can I keep it going. I think that's . . .
P: But the question is, what is the "it" that you're referring to? What do you think is going to happen?
H: Oh.
P: You see? It's almost as though you're making a confession to her.
H: Yeah. Yeah.
P: Whereas actually... all you have to do is do it; you don't even have to tell about it.
H: That sounds a lot easier. (Laughs)
P: Well sure, I mean, you know, why-why would you have to suddenly make everything so drastically different from your nature? If you can bring your blood into your face...
H: Yeah.
P: and your interest out front, and your sense of relationship clear...
H: Yeah.
P: then it may not be necessary to make any confession about it.
H: I think that-I can see that.
P: Yeah.
H: Perhaps my worry is, can I keep doing that?
P: Well, chances are you can't . . .
H: Yeah.
P: right away; but this takes a while to develop.
H: Uh-huh.
P: You can't expect all of a sudden… to get to a different place. Yeah, I feel like you know what we're talking-what I'm talking about.
H: You know, I feel like I do, too. And-uh... I'm gonna try.
P: Yeah. Let me give you a couple of-uh-a other observations about what I saw there.
H: Good.
P: It might be . . . it might permit you a more gradual entry into the feeling of what...
H: Yeah.
P: But like, for example, there's a particular point in the session where she seemed quite shy.
H: Uh-huh. Yeah.
P: She'd said something warm to you.
H: Right. She'd . . . she'd got embarrassed.
P: Yes; and it was really a lovely moment.
H: Uh-huh.
P: She appreciated you. And-uh-somehow it got slid over, rather than an appreciation of the appreciation, or an acceptance of it.
H: OK. Yeah.
P: So some remark like, "Well, you seem very shy now. Uh-is it too difficult to say how you appreciate me?" You see?
H: OK. Yeah.
P: Why is that so difficult?
H: I mean, to say that to her?
P: Yeah. I mean, you know, something. I'm not saying those would be the words...
H: Yeah.
P: but something on the order of dealing with the events as they happen...
H: Uh-huh.
P: rather than looking for the major event that may come to happen.
H: Right. Right.
P: Every moment has it's own . . . drama.
H: Uh-huh. Yeah.
P: I think you may be waiting for the major...
H: I haven't paid very much attention to those moments in the session, that's true. That's one example; I-I can think of others, too.
P: Tell-tell me about some of the others.
H: Uhm. I don't know whether it was apparent on the tape, she's a beautician.
P: Yeah; I didn't know.
H: And-uh . . . a couple of sessions back, I had just got my hair cut, or had had it styled; and she came in, and uh-about a third of the way through the session, she said-uh, "You know, you look better than I've ever seen you look."
P: Huh.
H: Well, I got embarrassed...
P: Yeah.
H: and I just really kind of brushed that aside.
P: You're-you're ... yeah. You're a very handsome man, you know.
H: Well, thanks.
P: I feel it. You got embarrassed?
H: Yes.
P: I'd like to know about your embarrassment.
H: (Pause) Huh.
P: Also, how did you feel about my saying you were handsome?
H: I appreciated it. Uh... and-uh-yeah, I-I think I had a little embarrassment just then.
P: Yeah. Yeah, you sort of heard it, but slid...
H: Yeah.
P: over it a little bit.
H: But I'll-I'll come back, later...
P: OK.
H: and remember it. (Laughs) It won't get thrown in the trash can. (Laughs)
P: (Inaudible)
H: Right. Right.
P: Can you feel the color coming… to your face now?
H: Yeah.
Fantastic! You look like you got a suntan.
H: Yeah; well, I think, you know, once again I got discovered.
P: Yes.
H: And-uh-that's ... that's manipulative, I suppose.
P: What is?
H: To wait until I get discovered.
P: Manipulative sounds like a very bad word.
H: That's how I was using it.
P: Yeah. What'd you mean by it?
H: (Pause) Well, I think it's-ah-it's probably not showing as much responsibility or ownership to-uh-to sit back and-uh-get noticed, and then come out. (Pause) It's something like some of the fish I try to catch.
P: Some of the fish you try to catch?
H: (Laughs) Who I-that I can see down there, but they won't come out...
P: Uh-huh.
H: until I throw out the right bait.
P: Oh, you're sort of a benign fisher?
H: Oh, very benign. Yes. (Pause) I've really gotten something here-uh-in terms of the relationship. In fact, I'm a little surprised at how little attention I've been paying to the relationship. And-uh. (Pause) And I think it really is quite important in this case. Maybe-I don't mean just in this case, but as I think about the case, I think-uh-I could have been moving more; I think I could have been better with her had I been coming out more. (Pause) I'm not quite sure how to get started, but I-that's-that's OK, too.
P: There's no demand…
H: Uh-OK.
P: See, I'm wondering whether you're turning something into a demand on yourself.
H: Oh, I think so. Yeah, I definitely was, just now.
P: Yeah.
H: Right. (Pause) It would be very difficult for me to walk into a case without having- having some demand.
P: What sort of demands are you familiar with?
H: Uhm. (Pause) Well. (Pause) One of my big demands is to try to screen out- out whatever else is going on and-so that I-so that I can really direct myself to my to my client.
P: Yeah.
H: That is a big demand I've got on myself. Uh... and I-I feel like that's what they're they’re paying their money for . . .
P: Sure.
H: and they have-at the very least, they should get that from me.
P: Sure.
H: Uhm. (Pause) I think I have-feel some honesty demand, too, in a case. I might try to couch it, you know, but I-I think-I really do think that there-that I feel some need to-to be honest with my clients.
P: That's certainly understandable.
H: Yeah.
P: What I am wondering is, how you . . . how you manage to satisfy these demands? Like how do you manage . . . to screen out everything but what's happening?
H: (Pause) How do I manage to screen out everything but what's happening?
P: Yeah, you said that's what you wanted to do, that-uh-you owed her...
H: OK.
P: your full attention.
H: I think I go on automatic pilot sometimes...
P: (Laughs)
H: (Laughs) to do it. Yeah, I probably do click into a different level of functioning. And I imagine it is-there-there has to be some mechanical-uh-treatment to that.
P: Uh-huh. Well, say more about the mechanical treatment possibilities there.
H: Well, I know how to begin a session. I know how to get a client started; I know how to make a client explore. And if I'm really trying to tune in to that, generally-uh-within ten minutes of a session beginning, I'm very much tuned in to a client, and not into whatever happened just before the session...
P: Yeah.
H: the fact that something happened. I-I can immerse myself in the content of the session . . .
P: Yeah.
H: that way. And that's-that is what I do; I immerse myself in the content.
P: Uh-huh. Well, it's beautiful to be able to immerse yourself. What you're saying is that you immerse yourself in the content, and the implication is that-uh-the process or the form would not be as much in…in your attention.
H: It comes following along. That's right. I'll have moments where that is just-that's bursting into my attention, but-uh-it's not the way I get it.
P: Yeah. Yeah.
H: (Pause) I'm kind of gathering from you that maybe the way you would do it would be through process.
P: Well, no-no, not-uh-just process. The way I would-the way I get in is that I get-uh-uh-I get fascinated with what's happening.
H: OK.
P: It might be content, it might be process; but I have no barriers to my being fascinated.
H: Yeah.
P: You see? So like I think-I think, you know, something somebody says to me, I
would think of it almost like a writer would a story line.
H: Yeah.
P: Like in wh-in what context is that the most interesting thing that could have been said?
H: Yeah.
P: And I think of everybody's life as being worth a novel.
H: Yes.
P: So once I have that perspective, and I don't make demands about-uh-goals, 'cause that's always a complication…
H: Uh-huh.
P: which I'm never free from, because I believe in goals in therapy, not just . . .
H: Yes. Yeah.
P: the experience itself. But it is-so it's a complication, because if what's happening doesn't seem like it fits my goals, then I might lose interest in it.
H: Yeah. OK. Right.
P: You see?
H: Right.
P: If I can get the right rhythm between my goals and what's actually happening, then I am free to be fascinated all the time.
H: Yeah, and the thing which hits me with that is, I would love to be that accessible. Uh-it's almost uncluttered. I think that's how I would experience me, it. I could do something like that…
P: Yeah.
H: and I would love that.
P: Well, let's-let's look at it for a moment.
Are you fascinated now?
H: Very. Oh, yeah.
P: What-what are you fascinated with?
H: Well-uh-with what you've said; and with how you might, you know, I-I-there's no doubt in my mind that that's exactly how you function, and that intrigues me. Uh-1 guess I think I could perhaps do that at some point, and that intrigues me. Uh. (Pause)
P: OK. Now tell me what fascinates you about what she does and what she says? You can either tell me...
H: Right.
P: or tell her, imagining she's there. Either way's OK with me.
H: OK. I-the thing-I'll tell her.
P: OK.
H: Uh.
P: Now, I'm not saying, and mind you, I'm not suggesting that you tell her this in therapy.
H: Right.
P: This is just you and me now.
H: Right.
P: The whole thing that we're doing now is just you and me...
H: Yeah.
P: and it has no immediate certainty about how it will be applied in your actual work.
H: OK.
P: It will have to evolve.
H: Right.
P: OK?
H: Yeah.
P: So then, there will be no demand; I mean, we can do what we want here, and you don't have to feel a demand that you're going to have to do that in your next session.
H: Good.
P: OK.
H: Yeah, that helps.
P: OK.
H: "I think the thing I would say-uh-that fascinates me about you, Ina..."
P: Look, try-try it a little differently. Not the thing that you would say...
H: Uh-huh.
P: because that's a prediction . . .
H: Right.
P: but rather what you feel like...
H: OK.
P: saying right now...
H: OK.
P: that fascinates you about her. And you may never want to say it again. Just right now.
H: "The thing that fascinates me most, I think, is what a good juggler you are. Uh-you have-uh-a way of taking almost all the-any kind of experiences that come your way and-and you keep 'em going in the air. And-uh-and…"
P: May I interrupt you for just a minute?
H: Sure.
P: I'd like you to sound a little more fascinated.
H: OK. (Laughs)
P: (Laughs) Like-like you really...
H: And I wouldn't be saying it this way? (Laughs)
P: Not to her. (Laughs) Well, I don't know how you'd say it. But, you see, I'm not saying you
should say it to her . . .
H: Yeah.
P: this way. Just for our sake here, I want to hear how you'd sound if you really sounded fascinated.
H: Oh, OK. OK, fine. Uh-you're-it fascinates me how you can keep things juggling in the air. I never have seen anyone who can take so many different events and keeping them going all at the same time."
P: Terrific. Can you feel-can you feel the difference, you see?
H: Yeah.
P: There's less monotone.
H: Yeah. Yeah.
P: There's more meaning of-each word has a certain place in your sentence…emphasizes a certain something?
H: Yeah, it . . .
P: Were you able to feel that?
H: Oh, yeah.
P: Yeah.
H: Yeah. As soon as 1 started saying it, I felt it.
P: Yeah. Yeah. Try it some more.
H: OK. Well, I know what she's going to say right back is-uh, "What do you mean?"
P: All right. OK.
H: She's going to for . . . uh. (Pause) "Well, when I-when I think about how you handle
your husband, and how you handle your mother, and how you handle your sister who is a drug addict, and-uh-how you handle your boss at work; all these things-it's, from what you say, they all hit you at the same time, and you just keep them going, and you never really let anyone of them land so that it creates a uh-uh-a catastrophe for you. Uh-what I think is bad about that, when you keep them going in the air, you-you also never have any ending to them. And-uh-that's the part that-uh-that I really wish that you could do something with."
P: How did that seem to you?
H: That felt good. Yeah. Yeah, that really is a-a statement that I have felt and thought about, generally after a session.
P: I could feel the struggle between your fascination and your trying to form the right words.
H: Yeah. Yeah.
P: You...
H: Yeah, it-it...
P: (Inaudible)
H: it didn't feel quite authentic, especially the second time.
P: The first time you didn't care; the words just came out.
H: Yeah. Right.
P: Yeah. Yeah.
H: (Pause) Yeah, I think I wouldn't have liked her to ask me, "What do you mean?"
P: (Laughs)
H: (Laughs) Rather've just left it there.
P: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah.
SUPERVISION SESSION 2: CARL ROGERS SUPERVISING DICK HACKNEY
H = Hackney R = Rogers
H: Would you start? (Laughs)
R: Well, I’d like to have you start because I’m not sure-uh-uh-what you’d like to…what you’d like to learn.
H: Good. There are several things I’ve thought about in going over this case, but I think perhaps the thing that-that bothers me the most as I work with her and this-I’ve seen her five times-uhm…. the thing I think…
R: Is this the fifth time?
H: This was the fifth time, yes. The thing which bothers me the most is that-uh…
I’m unable to anticipate her motivation to change from one session to another. She comes in one session, and if there’s been a crisis that week then she’s really motivated to try to work on that. Then-uh…if she’s had a good week, she doesn’t have very much motivation, then it’s-I really feel like I’m pulling teeth and I-that’s-that’s pretty much what it is: I think I work harder than she does on that week.
R: You feel a responsibility for getting her to move.
H: Right. I think I do. Uh-I think related to that is some confusion that I have in terms of…what we are working toward because she originally came into counseling concerned about her-uh-marriage and her relationship to her husband, and then in the second session he came and joined her, but hasn’t-he-he hasn’t been able to make it since that time. Uhm…and one week she’s dealing with how she can-uh-adjust to being newly married. The next week she’s saying, "I-he’s dragging me down, and I’m really trying-I’m wondering if I’d be better off outside the marriage, or not to be married." So I’ve-I’ve been having some trouble in that regard, too, of following to-uh…really to know what to do with what-what focus to take in the-uh in the-uh therapy.
R: And-and that focus is really up to you?
H: I’ve been assuming some responsibility for it, yes. (Pause) Uh-I think I get different.
R: Have you expressed that to her?
H: Not in so many words. I-I’m aware that- uh... on a couple of different occasions I’ve asked her, you know, I’ve asked her "What do -you want to be working on? What-what is it that you would really like to see happen as a result of counseling?" Uh… but I think I’ve done that indirectly…
R: It looks like you’ve been trying to draw the answers from her, rather than express some of your own feelings of uncomfortableness.
H: I think that’s fair. Yes. I think that is what I’ve been doing. Uh...
R: Sort of wish she would answer your questions for you.
H: (Pause) Probably that’s part of it; I think part of me also-uh-would like her to-uh-discover some self-direction, maybe. Uh-maybe I’m believing in that too much, at this point. Uhm . . . but, yes, I’ve been trying to pull it out of her. . . rather than to express myself. And I think what you’re hitting on there may be one of the-the qualities of this relationship that we have-that I’m removed in it a bit.
R: Uh-huh. What, in the portion that we saw of the interview, any particular things trouble you there or-uh-haven’t you…
H: (Pause) I felt she was working well there in that part. Uh…I wish it were like that more often.
R: What did you feel about your own functioning?
H: I felt pretty good about it then. I-uh-there were a couple of times when I thought I was putting words in her mouth. Uh…when she didn’t seem to be-uh…they didn’t ring true for her. But-uh… I felt pretty good about that particular segment that we looked at.
R: I had the feeling as the-as the interview went on that-uh… you were giving more and more direction to it.
H: That’s right. And I think that is part of my tendency. I think I…I will start out slowly in-in an interview…
R: Uh-huh.
H: and this-maybe this is-uh-an agenda that I have; but as a session wears on, I’m beginning to feel more and more of a need to-uh-have some-the client take something away that she can do during the week. Uh…there is a desire for-for some homework there, something for her to-uh-to extend the therapy session…with. And I think that was the direction I was going.
R: What did you feel her response to that was?
H: (Pause) Well, I think she had-I think she had some-uh-she was-her interest was teased just a little bit with it; but I think she also had some fear with it.
R: Uh-huh.
H: Uh…I think she-I think she was afraid to take a risk of-uh…. trying to…deal with her relationship with her husband.
R: It seems as though-uh-what you succeeded in doing was teasing her a bit further than she might have gone otherwise.
H: Uh-huh. (Pause) Yeah. (Laughs) That doesn’t sound exactly like therapy.
R: Well, it-uh…
H: I think you’re right.
R: It-uh and I-I-my estimate of her response was that it was a fairly dubious response as to whether she could do, "Yeah…"
H: Right. (Pause)
R: Any-any other comments of yours on that segment that we saw?
H: (Pause) I-I think that…perhaps the part that we haven’t seen or that we didn’t see following that was-uh-maybe an important point. Uh-it feels to me like all of that was laying groundwork-what we have seen. Uh-just a little bit later-uh-she said, "I’m not sure I can do it", and I said, "I’m not sure you could either." And she bristled when I said that; and she said, "Well, I don’t know-uh; when I make up my mind to do something, I can usually do it." And my comment then was-uh, "Yeah, I’ve seen that in you, and I know you can do it when you make up your mind to do it." And she looked at me suspiciously at that point, because I think she-I think she felt trapped. I think she thought I had set her up. And I don’t think I really meant…(Laughs) to set her up. Uh-but that seemed to be the moment of the-if there was anything that was going to-to be meaningful to her, it-may be what-it became at that point.
R: Would you like me to say some of the things that I felt I saw in that segment?
H: I’d really, really like that. Yes.
R: Uhm. Some of the time I felt that-uh-you-you-you did-you did well in responding to her feelings and understanding her. Uh-a few times I felt it would be possible to have gone more deeply, but that’s-that happens to all of us all the time. Uh-one thing that had meaning to me because I look for metaphors, and when she spoke about the marriage and she couldn’t move this way and she couldn’t move that way, you responded that she felt stuck-uhm…for whatever it’s worth, my-my-uh-vision at that time was of prison bars; I-I would have responded, "You feel-uh-that you’re really in a-in a prison; that you can’t get out."
H: Uh-huh.
R: And-uh… that might have enabled her to use that metaphor more. Uh. . . then-uh…then she seemed like a person who, as you say, has a hard time-uh-deciding what she wants, and it’s sort of this way, "Well, it’s-uh…sort of a laid back-uh-attitude, and uh… I guess it seemed to me that you were-uh-uh-fitting into that pattern. She wished…I don’t know what she wished; she-she acted as though-uh-she didn’t quite know what she wanted or where she wanted to go. And then you began suggesting things as directions where she could go.
H: Yeah.
R: And-uh-I-I-uh . . . I would have gambled on-on responding to her where she was uh-with the possibility that that would lead her to take a firmer stand.
H: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
R: You’re-you’re-as you say, the fact that she-uh-as I said, that she made up her own mind and she did what she-uh…
H: Yeah.
R: Uhm…. it wasn’t…
H: So I kind of took that away from her?
R: Yeah, a little bit, I think.
H: Yeah.
R: Uhm-and it interests me that she said, "When I make up my mind to do it, I’ll go ahead and do it."
H: Yeah.
R: And when you responded accurately to that… that threatened her…
H: Uh-uh.
R: which I think means that that was a very-important statement for her.
H: Uh-huh.
R: I’ve often noticed that if a person takes quite a positive step-uh-expresses a feeling quite positively, and you understand it accurately, God, that’s almost too much for them.
H: Huh.
R: They tend to draw away from what they just said.
H: Right. Right. That was the reaction I got from her when I said that.
R: (Pause) The-uh… when you say she has a sort of differing type of motivation, different… reason for motivation each time she comes in-uhm… that wouldn’t bother me. I-I would-I would-uh…go with whatever… shred of feeling she would let me have at the time.
H: Uh-huh. (Pause) I’d like to be able to do that. (Laughs)
R: (Laughs) Well, I’m saying what I would do; that doesn’t mean that’s necessarily what you should do.
H: Well, I don’t think what I’m doing is working for me. Uh… and I don’t think
it really is working for her either, so-uhm…and I think it would be-I think I’d be better-uh…in this case if I-uh…could feel a little bit less responsible when she comes in with less motivation.
R: She came in of her own accord. She asked to see you.
H: That’s right. That’s right. And she’s been very faithful-uh . . . so far in the case.
R: Wonderful. So then anything that you do that takes any responsibility away from her is really quite unnecessary.
H: Uh-huh.
R: She did decide to come; and she comes.
H: Right.
R: (Pause) An interesting, mixed-up, modern young woman, it seems like.
H: Yes, it is. Uh …and a delightful young woman, too. She really is. Uh…she’s the person I think I like most among the people I’m working with.
R: OK. OK, that’s important. That’s one reason why you want it to go well.
H: That’s right. Right.
R: (Pause) My feeling of her is very. . . good feeling, and I like that. It means you will get somewhere, but-uh . . . (Pause) But if you like her enough to want her to go your way, that’s-that’s a different matter.
H: Yeah. Well . . . you-that’s especially true because I’m not really sure . . . what way it would be if it was going my way. And I-I’m not clear there either, so…
R: Well, you were-you were somewhat clear toward the end of the interview as to a step that you clearly thought was advisable for this coming week.
H: Right. I had an agenda at that point; I was wanting to set up . . . an opportunity for her and-and her husband to-uh-to have a conversation. Whether that came off or not was another matter. But part of the sense that I was picking up at that point was that because of the pace of their lives they never even really had the opportunity. And then she got-uh ignored or missed-uh...
R: Well, that’s where you did feel a responsibility for helping set up something that would make that come off.
H: Oh, I was-I was taking care of it all. Yes. (Pause) Where do you think it might go if-if I were to-uh . . . that-that’s maybe an impossible question to ask.
R: Uh-huh.
H: If I were to-uh… to try to follow what her inclinations were-uh-as far as…her trying to find a moment with her husband, where do you think that might go? Do you think-do you think she would bring the initiative out of that?
R: I haven’t any idea where it would go, but to me that’s the fascination of-of therapy, is not knowing; and yet-uh-connecting just as deeply as I can with the, in this case, the confusion, the-uh…"Maybe I will; maybe I won’t. Maybe I like Don; maybe I like John." Uh…just connecting as deeply as possible with that feeling, and following it wherever she leads me…
H: Uh-huh.
R: uh-because she already feels your companionship in the relationship. That’s important to her…
H: Yes.
R: and so-uh-and she trusts you and trusts you enough to be completely open…
H: Uh-huh.
R: so that I think her own-uh-feelings would move in some direction. When you ask what direction, I don’t know. I don’t know. To me that’s-that’s the fascination of a relationship that, once in it, I don’t have any idea where it will go, and yet…
H: Right.
R: uh... I-I’m more-uh… the way that I work, I would have less of an agenda than you do. My agenda would be, Can I get so connected that I can feel every particle of what she’s feeling…
H: Uh-huh.
R: whether it’s-uh-wishiwashiness or whether she’s-or whether-one thing that I did notice that I probably would have responded to, her eyes lit up twice in the interview; once was when she, I think, got a little angry. And-uh-you responded to that, but I-I would have responded also to the gleam in her eye that…
H: Uh-huh.
R: that-uh-"Boy, that really makes you light up."
H: Yeah.
R: Uh-and I forgot just what the other one was, but she lit up at another time, too. And-uh-so that’s- that’s the kind of thing I like to do is-is just be so much with their person, their-their expression, their intonation-uh-their words, their metaphors, that-uh…they get excited and want to move further. That’s-uh…
H: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, I think I know what you mean about catch-letting them catch your excitement-uh-too. I can see where that would work with her. Uh-I don’t mean that the way it sounds, as-as a technique, but I’ve seen her get excited and-uh-I know that that ... when she does get excited, that’s when she really is being-uh-very good for herself and….(Pause) Well, I think I’ll-uh-see what I can do about laying back just a little. And I think it’s going to be hard to…. let go of some goals.
R: And I’m-I’m saying very sincerely that I was describing the way I would tend to go about it. You’ve got to be sure that that’s the way you really want to go about it…
H: Uh-huh.
R: or else it would be-come across as a form of (Unclear)
H: Right. I’m aware-uh…I guess that’s where I’m testing myself a little bit, too, because I’m not sure if that-uh… that drive only part is-uh…manufactured or if that is me, too. Probably-uh. . . I suppose if it could be me-uh-at this point in time, maybe that’s me. Uh-
R: Uh-huh. Yeah. At this moment in time, you know that’s the way you feel…
H: Right.
R: Uh-huh.
H: Right.
R: Whether you’ll feel that way when you next see her, that’s…
H: Right.
R: up to that point in time.
H: I’m going to be looking for it, though.
R: Uh-huh.
H: And that’s… uh-and that part I would-I’m looking forward to that part.
R: Well, it-uh. . . I sometimes say that when I see a client in demonstration interviews or something like that, I’m like an old fire horse responding to the bell; I-I-I would like to work with her, too. (Laughs) I can see why-why you would like to work with her.
H: Yeah.
R: (Pause) OK. Is that-uh?
H: I think that will do it.
SUPERVISION SESSION 3: NORMAN KAGAN SUPERVISING DICK HACKNEY
H = Hackney K = Kagan
K: Dick, Uhm-you want to try the Recall Process as one more approach to supervising you, uh-in this series. Uhm-the way I would work with you and would like to work with you now—I know this tape is about a week old, but my guess is that much of it will still be fresh for you. Uhm-as you interacted with your client- you told me her name was Ina…
H: Right.
K: Uhm—I go on the assumption that a heck of a lot was going on under the surface for you. Thoughts, feelings, impressions you were having of her. Or, impressions you thought she was having of you. Uhm-you know the mink works a heck of a lot faster than the voice does, so that there were lots of things that there couldn’t possibly have been time for you to say or deal with, but perhaps more important for you, there may have been a lot of things you only vaguely perceived and couldn’t find the words for, or weren’t sure if you dared to deal with, or…
H: …or didn’t trust.
K: Or didn’t trust. And-uhm-when you listen to the tape and I know you could now probably talk about a lot of those things, but when you listen to the tape I think you’ll find that a lot of that kind of process, the things that were going on inside you, things you thought were going on inside her, uh-a lot of that will come back to you. Whenever you remember any of it, just stop the tape. My role will be to pursue the story.
H: Uh-huh.
K: That you tell, that will always be your story because you know what was going on. You were there, you know what was going on in your head. My task is going to be to help you get as much of that out, put it in the form of language so that you can look at it, think about it. Uhm-you may also get in touch with things that you were thinking of saying and, and this will be an opportunity for you to-to say what you were thinking of saying….
H: Right.
K: …and listen to the sound of it.
H: OK.
K: OK, so whenever you remember anything at all, relevant or irrelevant, stop the tape and talk about what was going on.
H: OK, fine. Uh-just by way of introduction to this session, there-it was really like there were two sessions in this session. ‘The first half of the session-uh-was awkward-uh-I was uncomfortable. The second half of the session, we seemed to get into a groove and I felt good. I saw her relax. Uh-but I also got resistance from her in the second half of the session when I started uh-trying to plant some suggestions. So there’s something to work on with both-in both halves of the session. And I just turned to a place in the first half of the session to start…
K: Uh-huh.
H: …and I uh-I have to play it to see just where it is. (Plays audiotape)
H: (Stops tape) OK, uh-she’s been married four months and her husband is John. However, in the last two or three weeks a new man has entered on the scene. Uh-and it’s strange how he has entered because he has suddenly become friends of her husband, and uh-he and Ina had a soiree just a week earlier, and much to her surprise and I think to her delight. And so she hasn’t uh-mentioned him yet in the session so this is where I decide that I wanted to get his name into the session at this point, uh-so let me go from there.
K: What did you want to do with…?
H: …that…I wanted her to acknowledge that uh-or to at least make me current that he was in her world at this point. Uh-at this early moment in the session, she is talking about what a terrible week she’s had. She’s talking about everything except this new man. And I’m curious, partly, is this new man still in the scene, if not -and if he is, I’m sure that he’s part of the complication. If he’s not in the scene, then I would guess that’s part of the complication. But she’s not speaking to him.
K: Uhm-huh.
H: And she’s not acknowledging him and-and so I’m kind of forcing the issue there.
K: OK. How did she react to…?
H: I think that she was a little bit relieved. I think she was waiting for me to make that move, because I-I think she’s a little uncomfortable to talk about him. Uh-but as I remember, uhm-there was just a little bit of relief in her face when I brought his name up.
K: Uhm-huh. How did that influence what followed?
H: Oh, I was delighted (Laughs), of course.
K: Uh-uh.
H: I thought that, "Yeah, you were right that time." Uhm-I’m going to have to play it to see what follows. I can’t recall right now. (Plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) Ok, I-I laughed at that point because everything I was reading was "Here I put myself out on the porch where he would be sure-sure to see me, uh-yet I was nervous about that but I-I didn’t want to miss the chance, and then the sucker didn’t even uh-say anything to me."
And I thought, uh-well, all right I-I think I thought, "Yeah, you probably deserved that. You’re playing a game with him and-uh it’s not a bad game, but you’re playing a bit of a game with him, and he decided not to play it. So maybe you got your natural consequences in that."
K: Uh-huh.
H: So there’s a little bit of satisfaction, I think, in my-in my reaction.
K: Dick, did you get any sense of what she wanted from you at that point. Did you get any….
H: Well…
K: …glint in her eyes?
H: This has been troubling me all through this case, uh-because one minute I-I have a sense of what she’s wanting and then 10 minutes later uh-what I’m getting from her is just the opposite.
Uh-in that particular moment, what I think she was wanting uh…well, let me think. (Pause) In a way, I think she was wanting me to react the way I did, because I think she recognizes the game. I think if I had uh-taken her too seriously uh-that it would have eventually led her into a trap.
K: Uhm-hm.
H: But I don’t think she’s that serious.
K: Do you have any sense of how she feels about you at that point?
H: Very comfortable with me. This is uh-probably-probably my biggest sense in-in this case-that she likes me, she’s comfortable with me, she will let me confront her. Uh-sometimes I get a little too close with something and she gets embarrassed. She gets nervous. She will pull back. Uhm-in that moment I think she-I-I do think she felt good about uh-how I was reacting to her. She did smile…
K: Uh-huh.
H: …following my laugh, she smiled.
K: Any risks that you’re sensing. any cautions on your part, any sense of being on a tightwire, uh . . .?
H: Not yet.
K: Late
H: Later. (Mutual laughs)
H: Right. (Plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) I didn’t believe her uh-when she said that I thought she ought to be embarrassed. But I didn’t really quite trust that embarrassment. I think she was really just saying, "You’re getting awfully close right now."
K: What did you think you were getting close to?
H: Uhm-the crisis of her indecision I-I is about the only way I know to say that. I think what she really wants is to be confronted by her—what she’s doing in her world right now. Because I think she is really not quite sure what she wants, whether she wants to stay in her marriage or whether she wants to get out of her marriage, but she’s very good at uh-protecting herself from that question. At any given moment, she gets immediately into the moment and doesn’t have to face the other half of the issue.
Uh-like when Don came up uh-to the house, she wasn’t dealing with what will John’s reaction be at all. Uh-when Don is out of the scene, John is there. She’s not dealing with Don’s existence at all, so what I was trying to do was to bring those two-what I am trying to do is to bring those two worlds together.
K: OK. Is there anything that you’re tempted to do or say that you’re holding back? (Pause)
H: Well, I think there is a part of me uh-that thinks she’s uh-uh-being unrealistic and
uh-playing games with herself, playing some dangerous games with herself, uh-maybe being a little bit under-responsible in her behavior.K: You’re tempted to say that but you don’t?
H: I-yeah, right. (Laughs)
K: What keeps you from saying that . . .?
H: I don’t know if it would be therapeutic to say that. I guess I’m-if I-I’d like to uh-I’d like to think that it was therapeutic. But I am-I’m not convinced of that, and-uh-I’d there’s-there’s the tight wire that you asked earlier. I think-on this particular issue I am walking a tight wire. Uh-sometimes I-it feels to me like I’m coaxing her right up to the edge of her risks, and I don’t want to push her too far there, because I think I could lose her.
K: Do you have a fantasy of what would happen if you lost her?
H: Well, the only real concern I have is that uh-it would do some uh-damage to the relationship and we would have to rebuild. Uh-I don’t have any greater fantasy than .
K: When you’re on this tight wire, what does it feel like for you physically? Is it in any part of your body, particularly?
H: Ah.
K: A physiological concomitant?
H: Uh-I might . . . I-I-I’m having trouble locating where that might be. (Pause) I think I show it in my face more than anywhere else. I-I-may face uh-(Pause) my facial reactions probably start to uh-to reflect that discomfort.
K: Do you think she’s aware of your discomfort?
H: I don’t. Uh-and maybe I’m misreading her completely. Uhm-she’s uh-in terms of psychotherapy, she’s very naive. And uh-in some ways she’s really kind of a model client because she is uh-uh-so amenable to the process. I don’t experience her as being critical of the process though.
K: Anything else you’re aware of at this point in time?
H: No, that’s about…
K: Uh-huh.
H: . . . that’s about it.
K: (Unclear)
(Hackney plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) I’m confused at that point. I really don’t know what she’s trying to say to me. Uhm-and I’ve—and I don’t know that she knew what she was trying to say at that point. So I-I-I remember at the time trying to figure out where-where are we going with this? Uhm-what is it she’s…it seemed to me she’d made a jump at that point in her thinking and I couldn’t catch up with it to figure out where she was.
K: Uh-uhm.
H: And I can’t remember where we went from this. Uh-that does happen in our-in our sessions. There are times-there are often times when-uh I have to catch up to her. She’s-she’s made a kind of jump and…
K: At those moments, is there anything that you’re tempted to say that you don’t?
H: Well, yes. Yeah. I-I think I have been uh-when I’m in one of those moments, I feel like I have been doing too much following. And maybe I ought to be getting more active, and maybe I ought to be confronting a little more, or just asking her "Where-where are you right now?"
K: OK and what keeps you from doing that?
H: Uh, well, basically what keeps me from doing that, I think, is that uh-I-I’m working out of a uhm-model that I use of uh-trying to get really grounded with the client in the first part of the session. Uh-maybe I’m-maybe I’m saying that I’m beginning to question my model a little bit. Because I do feel some impatience uhm-to become involved. I-later in the session I, in any session I tend-tend to get a bit more active. Uh-maybe I’m having trouble with my model here.
K: Is there anything about her age, sex, physical appearance uh-that’s having an impact on you? Or I-I should say what is her age, sex, physical appearance . . .
H: Uhm-she’s attractive. She’s just a little bit overweight. Uh-her personality is delightful. And uh-I guess I’d have to say she’s my-my favorite among my client’s that I’m
working with now. Uhm-and I really do look forward to the session because it’s —
they’re fresh. Each session really is a fresh session. Uh-and I have a good sense, you
know, almost always at the end of a session, I feel good about the session.
Uh-it’s the first half of that session that is the struggle for me. May I’m-maybe I’m
too invested. I don’t know. Uh-maybe I...K: How do want-how do you want her to perceive you. How do you want her to feel about you?
H: Well, uh-that’s-there’s several different things, I think. I want her to like me. Uh-I want her to feel that she is getting her money’s worth. Uh-I want her to feel that I have compassion, that I-that I do understand uh-the world she’s operating in. Uhm-and I want her to-to feel that, ultimately, that she doesn’t need me.
Uh-we talk about that just a little bit later in the session, in fact. But uh-(Pause)
I think those are basically the things I’d-I’d like to have her feel.K: Anything else (unintelligible)?
H: No, I think that’s that. Uh-let me-let me advance it some now.
K: Sure.
H: I get into a strategy just a little bit later, and uh-halfway in I’m not sure if it’s the
right strategy to choose. So maybe that-if I can find that here.K: Uh-huh. (Plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) Ok. (Plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) That’s still too far in. (Plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) This is her mother she’s talking about. (Plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) Here I’m starting to (Plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) I’m pushing her at this point because she really doesn’t want to accept, my sense of-of her reaction is that she really doesn’t want to accept responsibility for uh-making things happen. I think she-she’s still kind of sees herself as a victim.
Or maybe it’s uh-maybe she just can’t see any alternative to being a victim at this point, and I’m-I realize as I’m suggesting to her "You might be able to make some things happen differently." And I feel resistance from her. This is where the resistance starts to uh-build.
K: Ok, so this is your strategy for her at this point.
H: This? Yeah.
K: Do you recall what your feelings are as this is going on? What’s going on inside you?
H: I’m-I-at this moment, I’m feeling like I’m right on.
K: Uh-huh.
H: Uhm-uh-but I’m not sure how she’s going to react to it. I’m feeling pretty good about my-in my head this is what I want to do.
K: What reaction are you hoping for? What do you want her to say in your favorite fantasy?
H: Uh-oh I think in my fantasy it-it comes-it comes as a revelation, you know, an "aha"…
K: Uh-huh.
H: …experience to her. And she says, "Well, of course, and I’m going to go right out and do it." (Laughs)
K: Do you get that?
H: No. No. I get a lot of reservation, a lot of, lot of guardedness. And a little bit later, I decide that I can’t push it frontally any more and that the most I can hope for is to plant the suggestion and uh-in fact I paradox her at that point. Tell her that I’m not at all sure she can do it. Uhm…
K: The-the feeling that you have when you don’t get what you want from her, what happens to you at that moment? Wh-what’s happening to you here when she’s not giving you what you hope for?
H: I’m doing a lot of reading, to trying to read. I’m trying to read her reactions in her face, in her facial gestures, n-her body movement. Uhm-I’m-I’m trying to measure her resistance to me. That’s what I’m trying to do.
K: Ok, when you don’t get the response, what feelings do you have as you’re doing all that? What happens to you?
H: When I’m active like I am at the moment, uhm-my reaction is that "You’ve pushed too far. You-you need to back off a little bit."
K: Ok. To what extent do you think at that moment she’s aware of what’s going on in you?
H: I don’t think she’s very aware at all of what’s going on in me. I think that may be uh-I think that definitely is one of the characteristics of our relationship. She doesn’t have-I don’t give her much sense of what’s going on with me.
K: Do you want her to know what’s going on with you?
H: Well, uh-I’ve been dealing with that just lately. I-I am beginning to entertain the-the possibility that that would be good. But until just recently, I haven’t seen that as particularly necessary. Uh-
K: As you contemplate sharing what’s going on with you with her, are there risks involved for you?
H: Perhaps there are risks-well yeah, sure there are risks involved. Uh-I think as I let her get to know what I’m doing, uhm-what I’m reacting to, I think I’m going to give up a little control in the session. And-uh-I’m not sure where that will go.
K: What-what’s your fantasy?
H: (Laughs)
K: What’s the nightmare?
H: My best one or my worst one?
K: Yeah. (Laughs) I like the worst, that’s…
H: Well, I think in my worst fantasies, she will have uh-she’ll have seen my cards. And uh-I won’t have uh-anymore cards to play.
K: And what happens then?
H: Oh, I-I suspect at that point, it’s up for grabs. No seriously…
K: (Laughs)
H: Uh . . . (Laughs) Probably nothing very serious would happen then. Uh
K: What’s it feel like to . . . what’s the other process for you?
H: Uhm-(Pause) Huhm. I suppose uh-there’s a clutching, and uh-maybe that would bring on some of my uncertainties. Uhm-where would I go from there? Just uh-I think part of what I tend to use is my anticipation. And where the session might be going next.
K: Uh-huh.
H: And I think I would give up that-that potential, maybe. And uh-I’d probably have to be a whole lot more uh-available to uh-what was happening in each moment...
K: Uh-huh.
H: …if I did that. I know I would. And, that’s not a style I have used. Uhm-that may be good or bad, I don’t know, but uh-I feel some discomfort with it.
K: Anything else?
H: That’s all I can think of at the moment.
K: Ok, let’s go back to the tape. (Plays tape)
H: That gives me away, doesn’t it?
K: (Laughs) What’s happening for you at this point on the tape?
H: Uhm-l’ve got a strategy at this point. I-I’m starting to lay some-groundwork that uh you know maybe we need to uh-make our plans for the coming week and this time let’s try uh-submit that-those plans just a little bit more by uh-not only know what to do, but how to do it. So I’m really-I’m-I’m just really trying to hold the mirror up and say "Look, here’s what you wanted to do last week and you didn’t get it done. Maybe this is why that you didn’t get it done."
K: Uh-huh. Do you have any sense at this point of what she wants from you also?
H: I don’t think I do. No, I really don’t. I think I’m into my own strategy at this point.
K: You don’t feel any pressures from her of any sort or kind of…
H: No. And this is uh-this is part of her characteristics, I think. She is inclined to treat me like the doctor. And uh-I think when I accept that and go with that, she’s very comfortable.
K: And you feel how when you accept that and go with that?
H: When I think I know what I’m doing and where I’m going, I’m-I do very good with it, I go with it-uhm-up to a point of encountering resistance, and then I-then I have to back up and reassess.
K: And how does she-how does the resistance occur?
H: Gen-well in her case, the resistance uh-occurs when she starts-typically, she will say, "Yeah, I-I see the point of that uh-and that makes sense to me and I’d like to do that" and then she says, "But I’m not sure. And then she-she’ll start giving me reasons why it might not work. And when she gets into that, then I don’t-that for me is her own resistance. When she starts looking for the flaw. It may be low-level resistance, but still I think it’s uh…
K: And again, the impact on you when that happens?
H: Ok. The impact on me is to-my-my first response is, "Have I pushed too far?" You know I-I take resistance-that resistance really very seriously. I think that uh-Ok, my reaction is if I give her something to push against…
K: Uh-huh.
H: …when she resists…
K: Uh-huh.
H: …then that is not going to be therapeutic.
K: Uh.
H: Ok.
(Plays tape)
H: (Stops tape) I think that’s the high point of the session. I think-I think it’s the high point because she came to that. Uh-she made that connection.
K: Uh-huh.
H: And I didn’t strategize to get her to come to that
K: Uh-huh.
H: …connection. I felt really good about that one.
K: What enables it to happen as you were-as you were in that mode?
H: I think I uh-a key question I asked, "Uhm-how would you like him to treat you?"
K: Uh-huh. What enabled you to do that?
H: I have no idea. I-I-when I heard that question I was su-I didn’t know where it came from. It kind of surprised me, too.
K: And you were pleased.
H: Oh, yeah. Yeah, as soon as I heard it, I knew it was a—"that’s a crackerjack of a question." (Laughs)
K: (Laughs)
H: And as I’m saying that I’m aware that-that there’s no strategy at all behind that. That’s pure intuition which is what I was saying a while ago I was a little bit worried about using.
K: Uh-huh.
H: So I-I hear the contradiction of my own statements there.
K: You said before that one of your struggles was the issue of maintaining control…
K: What’s happening to that at this point in time?
H: I’m going with the flow. I’m not-I’m not at all thinking of control. What happened-the way I put it together at the moment I remember was things were in a groove now. It’s-it’s like you go out on a sail boat and for a while you can’t catch a breeze, and all of a sudden you catch a breeze, and the sails fill and, you know, you’re not worried about breezes anymore. Now I’m not worried about breezes any more.
K: Anything else arise?
H: Uhm, no. To tell you the truth, I think I got-I’ve gotten what I came for. Uh…
K: (Laughs) It’s been exciting.
H: Yeah. I’m, uh-I’m rather pleased with what I-I think we just found there in terms of uh-of letting go a little bit maybe.
K: It’s been exciting. I uh-also wanted to learn something about how you think, about what your struggles are and uh-I’m delighted to have been able to share that.
H: Well, I really enjoyed it.
K: Good.
H: Thanks.
SUPERVISION SESSION 4: RUDOLPH
EKSTEIN SUPERVISiNG DICK HACKNEY
H = Hackney E = Ekstein
E: It takes courage to start the supervision; to let me really direct in on it; to not change it around to give me an indirect report or interpret it, but rather show, here it is. And as I was trying to see what is here, I tell you, the first thing that occurred to me, she says, "I’m unhappy, and I’m in an unhappy marriage."
H: Uh-huh.
E: She starts out with a bit flirtatious at the moment…
H: Yes.
E: as if she was seductive.
H: Yeah.
H: Yes.
E: And then she says, "But I can’t live with him," and-uh-you say-to her, "In the end, I guess it looks like the only way you get something going with him is to smoke him out." And the main impression that I had, if I were to consider what is wrong with this woman, what is her problem, her problem.
H: Uh-huh.
E: not a marital problem, I would say, "What could I do to smoke her out?" So that it looked to me like a-a kind of triangle: The husband in the background, the two of you in the foreground. She complains about him, and says, "I’ve got to work so hard to get anything out of him; I’m not happy."
H: Yes.
E: "I’ve got to get it going."
H: Yes.
E: And the impression that you gave was to convey indirectly to me by showing how it was-how does one smoke her out, so that one can get to the inner self of this person. And the question that I have: Did I observe it correctly, or was it just too short for me to capture what goes on now and, from what I suspect, will continue to be the slant of that session?
H: Yes. That’s-that’s pretty much the-uh-the tempo that session took. And-and I’d have to say that-uh-that really is . . . better than some of the sessions.
E: With her?
H: Yes.
E: What does she do otherwise?
H: Uh-there are some sessions that I feel-uh-a lot of resistance from her. She-she’s there by choice, but she’s-she’s not there to work.
E: What was the-the original purpose; what brought her in?
H: OK. She came in-this-this was…
E: Her claim?
H: Her claim was-uh-anxiety attacks that she was having-uh . . . periodically . . . some
maybe two or three weeks apart. And she associated them-uh-with one of two things-uh-an auto accident she has ss-uh-six months earlier or her marriage which was-is four months old. But she says sometime around that time she started having these anxiety attacks. And-uh they got so bad that she can’t drive! Uh…at work, she’s a beautician, at work, when she has one of these, she feels like she has to run out of the beauty shop. And-uh . . . if she’s at home and has one of these anxiety attacks, all she wants to do is to go into her room-er-into the bedroom, close the door, turn out the lights, and just stay in bed . . . until it passes.E: I heard you make a remark, there is somewhere a mother in the background.
H: Yes.
E: Another triangle situation.
H: That’s right.
E: As if to say — again I’m. . . trying to think with you—to sense-I sense to leave mother, to leave the original family, and to go into a new situation and go to that man, is something deeply anxiety arousing. It would be like an auto accident; something terrible will happen.
H: You are absolutely right on, because-uh-she comes from a family where the father left when they were all very young. She was the oldest of three children. Mother oftentimes is the-a child. And she, in one of the earlier sessions, was reporting how she felt like she was the most mature member of the family growing up; and she still is the one that they all turn to when they have problems. So she does feel like the responsible person.
E: You get an absent father…
H: Uh-huh.
E: a triangle with an invisible father, a phantom father…
H: Yes.
E: And the original idea, "Someday I have a life of my own; I will find a man…"
H: Uh-huh.
E: "Can I smoke father out; where is he hidden?"
H: He’s
E: "Can I find him…or if I met him, can I get to him and say, ‘Why did you leave us?’"
H: Yes.
E: " ‘Why did you die; why did you leave; how come you’re not here?’ Can I smoke him out, or will he be like that father? Why should I get into that situation?"
H: You really are hitting several buttons for me, because about a year ago she went to find her real father in Florida; and it was a catastrophe. Uh-she drove down there. It was so bad she flew back and left her car there. Uh-she had to-to fly so fast to get out.
E: But you understand, it doesn’t take much symbolism to say, "I am afraid to take care of my own life. I cannot…"
H: Yes.
E: "run my own car. I cannot go my direction. Somebody should go with me." Here we have an auto phobia instead of the fear of flying.
H: Yes.
E: We could just as well-could have had a fear of flying. But, "I must be taken care of by someone. I cannot trust him whom I cannot find. I cannot smoke him out of his hiding place."
H: Uh-huh.
E: "And here I am with this man, and constantly feel he’s not there. I do not understand him. I have no relationship. Whenever I try, I do not get the response that I want. I get more and more anxious. What is wrong with him? Why does he not change?" And, of course here comes now your question, "What could I, the therapist, do to smoke her out?"
H: Yes.
E: "Because it’s almost as if she invited me, try to pin me down, and say, ‘What is wrong with you?’ rather than, ‘What is wrong with the father? What is wrong with the husband?’ You choose…"
H: Uh-huh.
E: "In the search for the father you became paralyzed, and in the search for the man you’re paralyzed once more; and you come to me." And you will not say now, but you will think: In the moment, there was a flirtatious moment in the beginning, as if she would say to you, "Well, if it would be you, that would be another story."
H: Yes.
E: As if she now, in the transference, makes a play for the more ideal person. But at the same time, cannot talk, because she says, "I don’t trust you, either."
H: That’s true.
E: And here you see, I believe, the-the-the-the ambivalence between the yearning for the father…
H: Uh-huh.
E: and the desperate fear that, "I will never smoke him out of his hiding." And, of course, psychotherapy is an interesting situation because we want to know the secret of her life. We are not in treatment; we don’t want to give her the secret of our life. And it is now the struggle between the secret-taker, who wants to find the secret of a patient’s life, and the one, however, in order to find the secret remains in some-way anonymous, because if it is not anonymous, he starts to search for her in a completely different way; and countertransference overwhelms him.
H: Yes.
E: At the same time, if he’s stymied because she doesn’t come through…we see the other side of the counter-transference: "What am I to do to smoke her out?" And, now that we-we agree on that, play with a few solutions. (Pause) You see her tomorrow, again?
H: I’ll see her Monday. (Pause) I-uh…I’m intrigued with that, and I’m not sure-I’m not sure I really do know how to-uh-to handle that because I have been feeling a-a heavy responsibility.
E: Let me ask you. This is the first time we meet.
H: Yes.
E: We smoke each other out, too. You want to find out about me; and I want to find out about you.
H: Well, that’s true.
E: And I think I let on pretty well… how I think about such material.
H: Yes.
E: With your usual patients... I only know that you’ve finished your studies; I’ve got no kind of a-no idea what kind of tools or what kind of thinking you usually use.
H: Yes.
E: What would be your usual way of working with somebody?
H: Uh... my preferred way would be…
E: Give me the-uh-a label.
H: Uh-I would prefer to use a systemic approach . . . if-if I…
E: Tell me what you mean by that.
H: Uh-I would like to-uh-try to work within the social system that she has which would
basically, be she and her husband. I would like-I would prefer to work with the two of them together. If the opportunity ever came up, I’d like to bring her mother in.
E: In other words, the idea-the tendency would be to turn it into family counseling.
H: That’s true. Yes.
E: Which is, of course, a very heavy decision for this reason, isn’t it? You have a person who has-uh-panic states?
H: Yes.
E: Not just anxiety neurosis; she has panic states. And, you do not know, at least I wouldn’t know, at that moment, whether these panic states are panic breakdown, or whether they’re phobic reaction.
H: Right.
E: If they’re panic breakdown…
H: That could necessitate…
E: What is this, because you could then say to yourself-uh, "Do I have a patient, or am I in a counseling situation?"
H: Right.
E: And I feel-I think that these five minutes are very interesting diagnostically…
H: Uh-huh.
E: because at that moment we have to deal, you know, just like I would-uh-I would-uh-if it were one way, the task that you have would be entirely different than if you go the other way.
H: Right.
E: And-uh-I say what can you do but be, at first, cautious?
H: Right.
E: As if to say, "I’m not yet ready to make that either into marital counseling or into-uh-bringing in all family members, let’s say, the way Murray Bowen would do, who works with the whole family...
H: Yes. Yes.
E: or whether you could simply see her as a therapeutic patient.
H: Yes.
E: And-uh... How?
H: Well, in some-to some degree she has made that choice herself.
E: Uh-huh.
H: Because I did see her hus-she brought her husband in once. Uh . . . he . . . and following that session, she really did not want to have him there. Uhm ...
E: If almost feels maybe the-what she needed was
H: That’s right.
E: marital counseling.
H: Right. (Laughs) She’s alluded to that. I have-uh-had a sense that-that her response is a phobic one, but I’m also . . . really been reluctant yet to move on that, because I-I guess I’m not fully convinced myself of…
E: I should tell you, you know, I’ve seen a few phobic patients in my time. You never know what’s behind the phobia.
H: Yes.
E: You know-uh-if it’s a-a childhood phobia, it seems to be one of the most, you know, most frequent things that we get.
H: Yeah.
E: And usually, we assume a phobic structure and know how to handle it well. When it comes to adults . . . it-you absolutely don’t instantly know.
H: Uh-huh.
E: Takes a long time.
H: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
E: Did-did this lady get tests?
H: Not with me, no.
E: Uh-huh. No tests available?
H: No tests have been made with me. Uh-she was in psychotherapy two years earlier, and-uh-I had requested that-uh-the records; and I haven’t received those records.
E: You haven’t got, yet?
H: No.
E: Did she tell you why she was in therapy then?
H: She said she had a phobic-I mean she had a-she was having anxiety attacks then.
E: Uh-huh.
H: But they-uh-they went away, she said. And-uh . . . she was in therapy only very briefly. The psychiatrist she saw-uh-saw her only four or five times, and prescribed medication and prescribed…uh-some vitamin-uh-treatment, and that was it.
E: Huh. So she tried you, too.
H: (Laughs)
E: (Inaudible). . . a completely different one this time.
H: Right. Right. Uh-one of the things which is . . . as I watched that segment of tape-uhm-my relationship to her. Uhm…there-there is a point there where she says-uh-"This is the only place, you are the only person who really listens to me." And-and I know that’s a statement of transference, or of relationship, or of whatever; and I don’t think I respond very well to that. I don’t know that I know what I want to do with that. Uhm .
E: Well-uh . . . I just go with those five minutes.
H: Yes.
E: And it’s again general with this situation because you know more; but, if it were those five minutes, I would say . . . it’s good to have someone to listen to .
H: Uh-huh.
E: but sometimes it’s difficult to tell, because there’s the struggle between the wish to be-to have someone who listens . . .. and the other wish . . . nobody should know.
H: Uh-huh.
E: Because, at this moment, the inner self is unprepared.
H: Uh-huh.
E: You can see the dif-she struggles with changing. Except you mentioned, later, she then said the husband will come as well. Then she had a meeting with the husband, she said, "I’d rather come alone."
H: Right.
E: Which I believe is the first concession where she says, "Maybe not he has to change, but I."
H: Right.
E: "I want psychotherapy." But, that is a very interesting con-uh-con-con-concession or confession, because then she says, "You listen to me. It’s so nice to be with you; you listen to me." Well, then "I come alone" is now not only the declaration of the wish for psychotherapy, it is also, as it were, the idea, "Let’s be alone, and have no third person speak into that." Just like, "I really don’t want the mother to speak into the marriage."
H: Right.
E: "I don’t want my husband to know what goes on between the the two of us. Why don’t you stop asking me questions? Tell me what to do," she might say. And sooner or later, I would say
H: Uh-uh-I think that is exactly right. I-I really do think that’s where . . . I expect to hear that from her.
E: Yeah. It’s almost predictable, isn’t it?
H: Yes. Yes. (Pause) Part of my . . . wish in this case is-has been-uh-to have her discover her strength; and yet, when I do something that would lead her to that kind of a conclusion, she invariably sidesteps me.
E: Because it’s a demand at this moment, you know? You-you think it’s a discovery.
H: Yes, that’s how I framed it.
E: How wonderful is it to-to show that; how wonderful better to discover that I leave in my pocket 10 dollars.
H: Yes.
E: But the way that I experience it is the fact which tells me. . . that to go and discover, perhaps, you have some hidden money somewhere, isn’t it, or some hidden ideas, some hidden secrets? The problem is, constantly, that she expects a demand, when really she wants to ‘take a counter-demand. The relationship with that husband . . . I do not know, but I could sort of imagine a quiet, a not very interesting man.
H: Right.
E: whose idea of living together with another person is to not reveal too much about himself; somebody who is some-what close up, who does, so to speak, mysterious; and he wants a home; and he wants a woman.
H: Right.
E: This one says, "I don’t know what goes on in my head"—your patient. "I don’t know
what goes in your head. Talk to me."
H: Uh-huh.
E: "Tell me."
H: Uh-huh.
E: "I can never talk to you. It’s like we have an empty relationship."
H: Yes.
E: And she constantly tries to discover the inner world of the other, her own inner world; and I would imagine, like a girl might do who would say, "Where is my father? Maybe he lives in Florida. Do you think I could find him? And if I did find him would he tell me what happened? Would I find out the secret of the family?"
H: Uh-huh.
E: I hear this terrible thing; over and over, I hear such stories. Just talked this morning in private practice with someone. "My parents never told me. It’s my sister who finally told me, the older sister, that my father was married before. Why didn’t they tell me?"
H: Uh-huh.
E: They-he also didn’t know that his mother grew up in an orphanage. All he knows that they’re successful Beverly Hills people who have a house that comes very expensive.
H: Yeah.
E: But he didn’t know that his mother grew up in an orphanage. I happened to know by chance. He didn’t know his father was married before. He feels like someone who’s given immensely except the one thing that he really wants .
H: Uh-huh.
E: "What gives with you? What’s in you?" He never gets. This girl never gets. She seeks now, and you would imagine, she would not only seek in Florida, she must also seek with the therapist. That’s after all, what we call transference.
H: Yes.
E: "Are you married? Do you have children? Are you free? I notice that you have a ring, or you don’t have a ring. And the way that you looked at me, and I couldn’t understand it. You have…(Unclear) to let me wait." And she would get more involved-more involved in the transference struggle. But the struggle would be, "Can I be safe enough with him to allow myself, in his presence, to tell him about me?" rather than to complain- to complain about the husband. Because to complain about the husband, true enough, it is something about her; it’s the whiny, deserted child.
H: Yes. (Pause) I-I really like that. I haven’t been thinking of the case in those terms at all. And it makes a great deal of sense.
E: (Inaudible) Excuse me. Whatever I said, it’s your material.
H: That’s true. That’s true.
E: It’s all your material.
H: Right, and I don’t know why I didn’t see it.
E: And that’s always funny, isn’t it? Uh-no super-no psychotherapist really ever tells a patient something new.
H: That’s right.
E: All you do is you reword it. You show the meaning a little clearer. It’s like you had a magnifying glass that magnified. And no supervisor ever tells a suspervisee something new. You just... from the outsides, it’s always easier to see.
H: Yes.
E: You know that it’s-it’s so interesting. I guess you would have the same feeling, if you look at that tape by yourself; you could almost supervise your work, you know.
H: If I could back enough far.
E: Yeah.
H: And see...
E: That’s right. It’s excellent, if you do. And it becomes, after awhile, clear. So that there’s no magic to psychotherapy; nor is there to supervision. It’s sometimes good to have an outsider.
H: Yes.
E: The question is, how does one ever remain an outsider.
H: Right.
E: Because the smiling invitation, "Will you be that pleasant to me?" (Laughs) No, no.
H: Yes.
E: You told me, before the lights went on, how nice my paper was, in the beginning. (Laughs) [Allusion to a convention paper Ekstein had just presented.]
H: (Laughs) All right. (Laughs) True. Well, I appreciate this. I-I think I’ve gotten something from this, and I…
E: Good. When we meet next time, we’ll see the case will go great.
H: Great. I will be going into it . . . (Inaudible)
E: (Inaudible)
H: Thanks.
ALBERT ELLIS SUPERVISING DICK HACKNEY
H: Well, Dr. Ellis, this is-uh . . . you’ve seen the tape of a session that I… was-uh-doing with Ina. Uh-I’m not quite sure how to start. Uh-I’m wondering if there were things that you saw there that you’d like to pick up on, first. E: Well, yes. But I want to explain first that-uhm-I’m naturally going to supervise from my own standpoint which is Rational Emotive Therapy, and this tape was almost the opposite... H: Yes. E: of what RET would be. So... uhm-I’m going to... get you on points which are illegitimate to some degree, you see. H: That’s fine because what we-our purpose is to bring out RET. E: Right. So I’m going to assume wrongly that you.., were trying to do some kind of RET session.. H: Good. E: and criticize it from that . . . standpoint, because actually I wasn’t quite clear what-uh-in… you were trying to do at points. Uh. . . sort of general psychotherapy, but I wasn’t quite sure. But, as I said, I’ll ignore that. Now, the first thing that I noticed from RET standpoint was . . . too much emphasis on the situation, what we call the "A" activating event… H: Uh-huh. E: and then we have a "B," a belief about it; and then a "C," a consequence. Now-uh-a feeling in our gut. Now, I assume the consequence was . . . sort of came in along the side, that she’s upset about the fact that her husband doesn’t talk the way she wanted him... H: Right. E: to. But I wasn’t sure what her feeling…was. We first make clear that it was an inappropriate feeling, because she might just be sorry and regretful… H: Right. E: about it, and that we wouldn’t consider an emotional problem. So if she were depressed, or anxious, or real . . . upset about it, that would be different. And I think she was. H: That’s-that’s right. E: Yeah. H: Yes. E: So let’s assume that she’s…anxious about that-and certain other things-it was obvious-that she was anxious about. So the "C" was fairly clear; we’ll say she was depressed or anxious about his not-they’ve been married for quite a while, is that right? She doesn’t… H: Well-uh…not as long as it might seem. They’ve been married six months. E: Oh, I see. Yeah. Because she mentioned twenty-seven years. Is he twenty-seven years of age? H: She was saying that-yes, he was twenty-seven years of age. And-uh-his style has taken twenty years to-twenty-seven years to develop. E: Yeah. H: That’s what the reference was. E: All right. So the first thing that came in was-uh . . . you said to her, earlier in the session, "You had to... smoke him out." And she sort of agreed to it. But we would be looking for the upsetting factor which, in my head, would be immediately, "as you shouldn’t have to." H: Right. E: And now I would try to confront her: "Are you saying that that’s unfortunate, that you had to smoke him out?" which is really. H: Uh-huh. E: But she’s really angry and upset because she shouldn’t have to… H: Right. E: smoke him out. H: And if she smokes him out, then she feels that she didn’t get what she wanted anyhow, because it should have happened spontaneously. E: Yes, that’s right. So she’s in a box there, and also she didn’t get what she thinks she needs, her wants were. In RET, any want, even an unrealistic want, is not too bad. H: Uh-huh. E: You want a million dollars right now, as long as you say you don’t need it. And then you were rightly, which is part of RET, giving her a little skill training… H: Yeah. E: which we’d go back to "A," the activating event… H: Uh-huh. E: and show her very simple techniques of maybe handling it better. We wouldn’t consider that of paramount importance, but we’d do it along with the changing of her belief system, and "C," her consequences or feeling. H: Yes. E: But while doing that we might give her some skill training. And for a while, you were . . . doing that. That was OK. But then the crux…arrived pretty soon. She said, "I’m scared I’m going to blow it." H: Uh-huh. E: And…I would almost immediately confront her and saying, "What are you telling yourself when. . . you’re scared you’re going to blow it?" And I know it, in my own head, that she’s saying something like she said a little later, "That if I blow it, as I must not, that would be awful." H: Uh-huh. E: So I would quickly interrupt, and suppose we implode it, saying, "Suppose you did blow it?" H: Uh-huh. E: "So you blew it?" H: You mean even rehearse blowing it? E: Well, we would…but we would implode it in the sense, we might do it in role-playing or something like that, but we’d implode it in her head, "Let’s suppose the worst… H: I see. E: "would happen," which is one of our main techniques. H: Yeah. E: "You really blew it, and he ran away screaming… H: Uh-huh. E: "and you ended up in the loony bin." H: Uh-huh. E: "Why is that so awful?" Because, you see, we’re trying to get an elegant solution, so when she finishes, nothing in the world-if the world came to an end-she wouldn’t upset herself. She’d say, "Too damn bad. Isn’t that interesting that the world is coming to an end." But you wouldn’t whine and scream, because that’s what we think emotional disturbance is, is nothing but whining. H: OK. E: You see. H: OK. E: She’s a whiner. H: Yes. E: So we would try to make the whining explicit, and say, "Well, suppose that…happened?" and then immediately…uh-well-uh-as an aside, I’m just doing the sequence-I would have gotten her to see that she’s telling herself, and who knows what might come out of that, but almost certainly she’d say, "Isn’t it awful to blow it?" or something like that. But then…you were doing skill training with her-her and her husband, as I said… H: Uh-huh. E: and on the side; but we would have gone deeper than that. We would have had her do therapy with her husband, because if I hear this case accurately, he has an emotional problem. H: Uh-huh. E: He’s unable to… H: Right. E: express himself. Now maybe not; maybe he’s just the wrong type and she stupidly married him. H: Yeah. E: And-uh-he has a right to not be expressive. But let’s assume he has an emotional problem, so I would get her to ask him, "When you don’t express yourself, dear, what are you telling yourself… H: Yeah. OK. E: "making yourself afraid of? not just . .." H: You’d teach her some therapy skill to use with him? E: Yeah, because we say in RET, the more you use therapy on other people, the better it is. When I was an analyst, I used to tell my clients, "Don’t analyze your friends and relatives; that’s what helps screw them up." So they analyzed them, and they did. But now I tell everybody practically, "Do therapize your friends and relatives with RET because among other things it’s a teaching device . . . and frequently, and I don’t know in the case of her husband, you have nothing to lose if he listens and changes his mind; if he doesn’t, she’s still taught herself how to use... H: Right. E: the RET. H: Right. E: You see. So our skill training would include . . . the skill, not just of handling him, but of showing him what he’s been doing. H: Uh-huh. E: To be a therapist. H: Uh-huh. E: This is in my groups, we get people to therapize each other, to treat-to practice themselves, not just to help the other. That’s one of the goals of. . . though I-but that’s just parenthetical. Then she says very succinctly, "I’m afraid to blow it; I’ll screw everything up." Well, first, that’s an overgeneralization… H: Yes. E: that you were sort of. . . I think, mildly trying to show her. H: Yeah. E: And we would have (Unclear) at one point. H: Yes. E: "Would you screw everything up, or some of the things up?" But then I would also implode them, you see We have two levels: one is the realistic level, "Would you really blow it that badly?" and the answer is’ "No." H: Uh-huh. E: But then, after doing that, I’d say, "Well, now let’s suppose the worst, if you really did screw everything up." Again, I’m going to confront the basic problem, that if the worst comes to worst, so she ruins her relationship with him, and she spends a little time in the loony bin… H: Uh-huh. E: "What’s so awful about that?" E: You see. H: Yeah. E: To really get . . . the po-possible, that we call the elegant solution. So she takes new learning about herself and how not (Unclear) and kind of situation, including this one which she’s dreaming up, that she’s going off the wall like her sister who’s apparently a drug . . . addict. H: Yeah. Yeah. E: And there was some mention of her mother. I wasn’t clear, was her mother disturbed too? H: Her mother is-uh-her child really. Her mother... uh-has become the child. She has become the mother, Ina has. So… E: Yeah. H: she feels just a role reversal has happened there. E: Right. But that means the mother is disturbed too. H: Yes. E: And she may be afraid to be somewhat childish like her mother. H: Right. E: I’d (Unclear) what to do so she can get over it; but you don’t awfulize about it. H: Uh-huh. E: And then she says, "I’m afraid I’ll be like my sister, go to bed and not get up, and John will hate me . . . too, for doing that," Now, this implicitly gives me the information which I suspected… H: Uh-huh. E: from the moment she opened her mouth, that she has, among other things, and maybe primarily, a dire need for love. H: Uh-huh. E: She’s not really (afraid) of going to the loony bin. H: Yes. E: She’s afraid she’s going to lose his love. Not that he sounds like a doll… H: Right. E: or anything. Uh…but it would go with probably any person she picked. H: I-I really think that’s true. E: Yeah. So I would try to get her, "Aren’t you saying you couldn’t accept yourself at all, if he didn’t love you, especially if he didn’t love you because you were off the wall." (Unclear) And I would try to get her to see that that is one of her central problems-a dire need to be approved, loved, accepted. And that again, it’s not necessary. It’s nice to be loved; it’s a delight. It’s only a pleasure; it’s not a necessity. She might practically want humans to take their desires and preferences and make them into dire necessities; and that is nonsense. H: Uh-huh. E: Whining and screaming about it if they’re not getting what they have to. H: Fine. E: You see, so I would try to, with a few questions, at least get her to admit, probably, that she does have this dire need which she probably would admit (Unclear). Then she says, "If one little piece falls out, everything is gone." That’s all or nothing. H: Yeah. E: How does that happen?" And then she says something interesting, "I really want that piece of pie." Now I would question that; she means "needs." H: OK. E: You see. I translate this in my own head. Every therapist goes in with his own bigotries and prejudices. When she says "want," people practically never mean "want" because they wouldn’t be disturbed. H: Uh-huh. E: So I’d say, "Don’t you really need that piece of pie?" This is her . . . uh-needs love. H: Yeah. E: When she says "wants," she’s just. . . covering up. H: Yeah. E: You see. It’s nice to want, and anybody will say (Unclear). It’s nothing to criticize. H: So you really don’t-you wouldn’t-uh-trust that wanting it was just on a level of wanting? E: No, because in our theory if you really wanted anything and didn’t get it, you’d be sorry, or regretful, frustrated. H: But go on. E: Yeah; but you wouldn’t be emotionally disturbed. H: Right. E: You see. The must, the need, the necessitizing is what leads to it. So we always have something to look for… H: OK. E: right away…in the very first session, we would look for those things, and see if they’re so. It might not be so. H: Uh-huh. E: And she says, again, "What if I do something really crazy?" And I’d say, "Well, what would you do?" you see, again imploding… H: Yeah. E: "really off the wall, and doing some really asinine act, and they’re thinking of locking you up, why couldn’t you still accept yourself, and say, ‘Well, shit, this is inconvenient...’ " H: Yeah. E: "‘being in the loony bin, but that’s all of it. That’s all there is in life.’ " You see. I would start teach-ing her to only think what’s obnoxious in life is only an inconvenience, and we define that as something horrible, awful, terrible. But that’s our nonsense. (Unclear) H: Right. E: so people would like you. Then you almost gave her a homework assignment, but I was not clear . . . about that. It looked like you were giving her a homework assignment. H: Yes. E: I thought you were going to nail her to do something specific, which we would have done. H: Right. E: We would invariably, not invariably, but almost always give her a homework assignment. And it was not bad getting somewhere in between (Unclear) but it seemed to get vague, and I never got clear if she ended up . H: She did end up with a homework assignment… E: Yeah. H: which was what you saw on the tape of having-uh-a meal with him out on the porch, out there eating it with him. E: Yeah; but it seemed to be a sort of deeper homework assignment. You were hinting at (Unclear) H: (Unclear) E: not more one extreme or another; try to get some balance… H: Right. E: in between, while you’re that. So that-that was OK. I just wasn’t clear on the point I heard. And then you said to her, "You have fear of loss of control, and yet you’re so controlling." H: Yes. E: But we would say that’s inevitable. In almost anybody with a horror. . . of loss of control, ironically, will be controlling. (Unclear) suppose I go out of control; wouldn’t that be horrible, et cetera. So then they’ll very frequently, in fact, go to the other extreme… H: Yeah. E: and…be that. And I would explain to her that’s where her overcontrollingness comes from, not from the desire to control, but from the dire necessity to control. H: Right. E: Her idea of control happens to be (Unclear), then we have to be in control, the more rigid . . . you are, and then you will because your fear of lack of control to be too . . . controlling. H: Uh-huh. E: And then you very correctly said, I thought that was very good, because she might have been too unrealistic, that, "John isn’t going to change fast, and-uh-even getting him to sit down the way you want him to sit down with you may be pie in the sky," which I thought was good, because she could easily… go and build up all kinds of unrealistic… H: Uh-huh. E: conclusions… H: Uh-huh. E: about, now you accept her, you’ve gone over certain things with her, now all I have to do is have a few talks with him, and he’s going to change. H: Yeah. E: And again I would go back to even, "It’s very unlikely that he’s going to change," because either he naturally is that way, in a healthy manner, which could be that’s his nature… H: Sure. Right. E: or he disturbedly is that way, and then you’re going to have one hell of a time except through pounding away with RET to get him moving. H: Yeah. E: That-uh…caveat you gave her was good, that she better not think it’s going to be easy. H: Uh-huh. Right. E: So those were the main things. But, as I said, a lot of these criticisms were unfair since you weren’t trying to do it within our framework, and most of the people I supervise would have this framework in mind. H: Right. E: And that they would follow it. And I’d show them how they go off the framework which, ostensibly, they’re following. H: OK. Uh . . . let’s just say l’m a very bad RET therapist… E: Yeah. H: at this point, and I’d like to, in my next session, I’d like to . . . build some improvement into that. Uh-one of the things I guess I’m hearing is that I could really be listening for is more of the sell -statements, the point "B." E: And... H: That my ears aren’t tuned in to that. E: Right. And the philosophy behind them. And the-really the self-statement… H: OK. E: we call them self-statements because most people most of the time tell it to themselves, but they could imagine it… H: Right. E: through imagery. They could feel it even. H: Yeah. E: But it’s a philosophy. And her two main philosophies that I hear there: one, "I absolutely need certain people’s approval, maybe everybody." That might come out, but especially her husband’s approval. H: Uh-huh. E: And two: "I must not act crazy." She has phreniphobia, really, loss of control. H: Yeah. E: And those two would usually be in implicit self-statements. Freud would have called them "preconscious," not deep in the id where we don’t think they might be. H: Yeah. E: You would look for those first in your head, you see. You have an hypothesis that she has these statements, and you just ask her. H: Yes. E: "Aren’t you doing this, or doing that?" H: Yeah. E: (Unclear) H: OK. I-I think that-uhm-really trying to listen for that, I think would help, in that regard. The other thing is that… E: Which incidentally is an extra form of effort, you see. H: Yes. E: You see, we go further than (name of therapist deleted) in empathy. He’s listening to their feelings… H: Yeah. E: and their actions, and things like that; and we’re looking for and listening to very acutely the self-statements that make them feel and act. So it’s… H: OK. E: and, therefore, at the end of the session, they frequently say, "I’ve never felt so understood in my life," because we’re not just reflecting. H: Because you’re hearing what was not said. E: That’s right. H: Yeah. E: And then we question them, "Isn’t-didn’t you put in those shoulds?" or whatever it was, and they almost always say, "Yeah;" they don’t deny it. H: Uh-huh. The other thing that you said which I’m-uh-interested in is the eloquent uh-extreme of this, is how it sounded to me. Uh-to take her fear and build that up or in-uh-implode that… E: Implode. Right. H: into an eloquent-uh-exaggeration that would be so impossible. I-I certainly… E: That’s what we call the elegant solution which means that under all conditions, at all times, if we succeed, whatever happens she’s not going to upset herself. H: OK. E: You see, not just the presenting symptom, that’s nice (Unclear) and not just even a series of symptoms; but new symptoms which she would . . . dream up in the future, if she has these basic’ philosophies. H: OK. Now, is the point there that if she-uh-really grasps that elegant ex-extreme . E: Yeah. H: that almost anything that she would do-would fall short of it and she wouldn’t have to panic with that, is that it? E: That’s one point, but always there’s a statistical probability that John might die and a few other really gruesome things might… H: Yeah. E: happen. Those usually don’t. She might, as you said, lose her job and a couple… H: Right. E: of things at once; but we’re saying that even then she very-she better feel very sorry and regretful. That goes from 1 to 99. H: Uh-huh. E: But not 101, which is depression, anxiety, despair. H: Uh-huh. E: Two continua. And we want her to feel very much when something goes wrong; we’re not trying to get calmness and serenity…as some Rational people do. So we want her to feel, but appropriate within the preference continuum, and not… H: Yeah. E: jump over to the necessitized; "Because I want it very much, ergo it should be." H: Right. E: Which is what… H: Right. E: she’s doing very clearly, as I hear. H: Yeah, and I-you’re speaking to something there that-uh-I have a concern about with Ina, in that it’s almost as though she hasn’t-uh-she really doesn’t have a sense of what her norms could be in terms of feelings. She doesn’t know-she doesn’t have a baseline for her feelings, so she doesn’t… E: Because she’s an extremist. H: Yes. She… E: She probably would feel either very lightly or all the way… H: right. E: and feel nothing; and, therefore, she doesn’t (Unclear) until she gets rid of the extreme, that I must not be unloved and feel like that would be awful, she won’t know what her preferences are, whether… H: Right E: they’re needs, necessities; you don’t know it. H: Right. (Pause) OK. E: ‘Cause they drive you-you are all needs. H: Right. Right. Now, I have some-uh-concerns that that could take a while with her to-to-uh-get that across to her because… E: That’s right. H: in some ways she’s resistant . . . to me. E: Right. But we would say that unless you take the while, you’re wasting your time. H: OK. I’m-I’m just trying to get… E: If you were helping her, and what you did, incidentally, was very good from one framework of therapy; that she’s going to like you, and trust you, et cetera; and I say it’s almost a complete waste of time; she’ll get sick of it. H: OK. E: You see, because you haven’t really changed-help change her basic philosophy. And she can take her philosophy with dire need for love and use it toward you, Sigmund Freud, or anybody. But . . . so we would want you to try to see what her basic assumptions are. And-uh… H: Yeah. E: work commonly. I would say you’re correct. She’s bright enough, and she sees when she resists seeing it. But actually feeling it, working against it, is going to take a while. H: That was what I was wondering. E: Yeah. H: Is there a while . . . is there time there, from an RET perspective, that I would have in working on that? E: Well, we would assume that somebody like her wouldn’t take-uh-several years, but… H: Right. E: would take 20 or 30 sessions. H: Right. E: You gradually… H: That’s... OK. E: see it, and maybe around the tenth or twelfth session, in a sort of, "Yeah, that’s right. I can see that I’m responsible for my feelings. John’s not making me feel this. I’m responsible, and I could control it. I can control my emotional destiny." H: Uh-huh. E: But it would take time and practice. H: Right. E: You see, that’s why we would give her the homework assignments, things like that. So…looks simple-it’s very simple; but simple doesn’t mean easy. H: Yeah. E: lt’s simple to diet… H: Yeah. E: but look at how many people fall on their faces. H: Yeah. What I was talking about in the way of homework I can see wasn’t at all the kind of homework that you’d be talking about. E: Well, it was partially so, ‘cause I thought philosophically you said, and I may have misunderstood it, to try to get her to get some balance. H: Right. E: You see, so you (Unclear) and a little implied. But we would give first the activity homework, like "talk to your husband." That’s OK. H: Yeah. E: "But while talking to your husband, look for what you’re telling yourself, and try to change it… H: Right. E: "if it’s upsetting." H: Huh. And I wasn’t at all explicit with that; so. E: No. H: Well . . . I appreciate this. I-uh . . . can see that the-uh-the point of the-uh-the imagery or the self-statements is a whole dimension that isn’t in this tape. E: Yeah. Fine. And in the vast majority of therapy. That’s why we think that therapy is often iatrogenic. It doesn’t do any good, because it misses the essence. It gets a lot of feeling out, a lot of insight at one point…insight… H: Right. E: That’s somewhat irrelevant to seeing your ~ own ideas and working your ass off to change those ideas over a period of time. H: Right. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you, very much. E: Thank you. |